The Reality Of RSI
RSI is a growing problem in the tech community. Jono Bacon and Stuart ‘Aq’ Langridge talk about whether it’s given the importance that it deserves and how to alleviate the problems so you can be a happy hacker. Join the conversation and tell us how you avoid RSI, and whether you’ve ever had problems with it?
38 Comments to “The Reality Of RSI”
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Reflexology is bullshit. There is no scientific evidence, whether it works for anybody or not has not a thing to do with whether it is a scam or not. Sorry. But referring people to pseudoscientific nonsense is not right by anybody’s standards. Once there is some better evidence that it works, then it’s of course completely different – however there is none. Here is some more information on it: http://www.skepdic.com/reflex.html Of course one might now say “ah whatever works for you” – which would also be rubbish. Because you have no honest, factual way of telling if it worked, or something else, or nothing at all. That’s why we have clinical trials and so on.
I’m complaining only about this one little piece of the podcast now, obviously, but I’m for some reason big into this whole intellectual honesty thing – please excuse my seriousness. I wouldn’t complain if I didn’t enjoy the show a lot.
Agreed. Enough of casual references to unsubstantiated scam healers. They cause harm.
Reflexology may be seen as a placebo. http://www.skepdic.com/placebo.html which is not rubbish, you may scoff at the “works for you” remark but people can be highly subjective.
If it really would be a reliable placebo, a reflexologist telling you it works would then be like a doctor prescribing plain placebo without telling the patient, with which I have a strong moral objection. If they are honest and forthcoming about the alternative (meaning non-scientific) nature of their claims (i.e. not trying to create the appearance of scientific validity, instead distancing themselves from real science), then I don’t have any grounds for disagreeing with their practice. I am upset about peoples lack of appreciation for the scientific method. If alternative medicine works, it becomes medicine.
Now if only we could set up a software business selling placebo software, then we’d be rolling in cash!
Can I have 5 million Pounds, anyone?
The problem with alternative medicine is not that it doesn’t work for some people it’s that it works without any known consistency, and people can end up paying a lot of money for it. This is not to mention the issues that occur when people in a smoke-in in a teepee in outback South Australia decide to pray and chant over someone who’s passed out for four hours before going for medical attention instead of doing it straight away (the guy died as a result) – that, thankfully, is relatively rare.
Mind you, I have the same opinions (ie you shouldn’t waste money on it) about lotto draws.
Just don’t come to me when your homeopathic RSI ointment just makes your fingers slippery. ;oP
Came here to make that point. Reflexology is bullshit, along with all other alternative medicine. You’d be as well taking a course of sugar pills to cure your RSI as doing reflexology. Somewhat disappointed to hear Jono is an advocate.
I also agre that reflexology is bullshit, but none the less the therapy sessions helped Jono. It was probably the placebo effect and the massage part, not the reflexology part, but it worked for him, which is a good thing. It could work for others as well and that could be a good thing too. Just don’t leave your skepticism at home.
I think some of the objections to reflexology on here are a bit too strong. If conventional medicine had a proven better alternative, then yes I could be argued that it does harm. But in the absence of anything more effective, where is the logic in critcising getting a nice massage and feeling better? I understand, and indeed fully support the argument against Homoepathy or Faith Healing for example. They do divert people from getting better treatments. But reflexology observes a central tennet of modern, conventional medicine, that modern conventional medicine itself often ignores with reckless abandon. IE the principal that above all other considerations, a physician must first do no harm. Were ancient medicine men morally wrong to tell people to rub Dock Leaf on Nettle Stings because they didn’t have an intimate understanding of Histamine and Antihistamines? How fucked up are we if we think a placebo is inherantly bad because we haven’t cut anybody up, poisoned them in the hunt for a cure or got our ego driven noggin around the exact mechanism in play?
I’ve never had any problems with RSI, but for some reason whenever others talk about it I start to notice tighntess in my tendons. Make of that what you will.
What the hell man….the OGG feed is downloading MP3’s. Anyone else have an issue with this??
If Rhythmbox would actually see the current Shot then maybe I’d have this issue
Hi, thanks A LOT for talking about this subject! It’s a subject close to my heart!
I’ve been suffering from RSI, in my wrists, arms, neck, shoulders and back), for about 5 years. The hardest part has always been the skepticism I’ve received when talking about it. And to be honest I was certainly part of it before I got sick.
I have tried some different approaches (regular breaks, keyboards, mouses, tablet, voice recognition, replaced blogs with podcasts, therapy, workout, stretching…) and all of the work. At least for some months. Before it comes back.
I don’t have any magical pills and I’m still not sure if I’ll be able to continue work as a programmer. The two methods that have worked best are regular (almost daily) workout and learn how to handle stress. But the things that works are probably different for different people.
If anyone wants to have some more recommendations feel free to contact me via my web site and I’ll see what I can do.
Thanks again for taking about this issue!
I like to take regular breaks. Used to be worth Workrave (awesome thing indeed), but it feels kind of ugly in Ubuntu nowadays. Now I just use Gnome’s typing break with Workrave’s lessons pushed into my brain.
I find that taking breaks helps me refresh my brain, so when I come back I’ll be able to approach a problem differently, or maybe my subconscious will have solved it for me. I work WAY more effectively when I take a break every 45 minutes, so it’s become more than just an RSI thing
I agree. When I take breaks I solve many more problems than when I don’t. Easy as that.
It reminds a lot about the pomodoro technique (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomodoro_Technique) where you work in short bursts with breaks between.
I wore wrist braces for a few years a decade ago. I was programming/gaming 14 hours a day. My RSI cleared up after I bought a mountain bike and started commuting to campus. I’ve heard that a very effective therapy for combating RSI is (besides proper ergonomic and regular typing breaks) is increased exercise. Improved circulation provides more oxygen to your tissues and they don’t sustain as much damage. Keeping your cardio in shape is also great for your posture which improves your breathing, which helps your stress level, which affects your posture and ergo and breathing.
I regularly attempt to stay ahead of wrist pain, because it can come back. Bicycling can aggravate wrists when you have an improper (often too tight) handlebar grip.
There are lots of techniques to help prevent RSI: converting to a standing workstation posture, using different pointing devices (trackballs), using multiple pointing devices (trade a trackball for a mouse every hour), fold a towel at the edge of your keyboard, wrist stretches (like an Aikedo warmup), wrist warmers also promote circulation if you work in a cold environment. Typing breaks can also include eye-stretches reduce eye strain and can help your stress/comfort level.
I’m a bicycle commuter, and I’ve converted my home and office workspaces to standing posture. I still pay attention to wrist comfort. I have books under my trackball or my keyboard or mats to stand on to adjust my ergo as I feel my comfort changing.
I agree that work out helps. I started rock climbing and that works pretty good as well.
I agree what were taking about here is RTS (repetative stress syndrome) and not RSI. RSI usually implies a wear and tear injury, rather that pains resulting from overstressing specific muscle groups in the body.
Personally, I have RSI (arthritis) resulting from many years of sports wearing away at my spine it’s nasty. But, when I’ve had a long days writing or coding in front of the computer my forearms, lower back muscles and left shoulder give me jip.
Regular exercise, which involves the whole body is the key to alleviating the RSS blues!
In fact, my right Flexor Digitorum Profundus is aching at this very moment.
PS Sorry about the typo above, should have read RSS and not RTS.
First for the people commenting about reflexology i think your wrong. There is nothing to say it works or it doesn’t so there is no harm, its not suggesting consuming any substance which might cause damage. This will ether be a load of harmless rubbish or it will work, what have you got to loose ? Secondly its there podcast and you can’t be outraged that they suggested it as its there podcast to suggest what they like.
As for RSI another person mentioned they do above is bike. I bought a road bike and loved it ever since, i often fine of a weekend its nice to go out on although I’m not saying you should only take one break in a week but thats one thing you can do to help.
The second thing i suggest might effect productivity but protecting your self against RSI is more important in my opinion, if you print a lot for example you should move your printer away from your desk forcing you to get up and move. If you send a lot of emails you should configure it to have a delay (i understand most email clients you can’t, luckily with open source its not too difficult) this allows you a few seconds (say 5 ?) to relax your hands. What ever action you perform roughly once every 5 mins maybe you should try and make it so it gets you moving or at least gives you chance.
Finally id like to finish of with i think a huge issue with preventing RSI, like i mentioned above these methods to protect your self against RSI effect productivity. Although your employers by law have to give you a break (at least they do in the UK) often pressure is put on you to meet deadlines and such which push you to work long periods of time (sometimes through your breaks) to meet the deadlines.
” what have you got to loose ? “
Well let’s see: Your time your money (lots of it) your patience your hope your sound judgement
Not to mention that you might not see a proper doctor — which puts you in danger of leaving serious illness unattended to.
I have had a mobile phone stolen once, it was a terrible feeling – apart from the loss of the phone. I think falling victim to a health scam feels quite a lot like it. The same thing is true for fortune tellers, people who talk to the dead and so on.
Come to think of it: Are you bloody serious? One may lose absolutely everything. All of their money, all of their sanity. One may become addicted, it may affect their families, et cetera, et cetera.
If a Family member goes to see a sham doctor for any sort of illness, especially if it’s serious (as RSI is), I would be immensely concerned for them. Wouldn’t you? Or are you saying, that for example if one has cancer, decides to see a voodoo healer, it’s not so bad if they spend massive amounts of money on them. It’s not so bad if they have false hope, delude themselves with wishful thinking and rationalise it with false hope, until they realise that they have been toyed with, that their concern for their health has been used to con them?
This sort of thing really gets on my tits – as should be obvious by now.
I would not say that if it didn’t work there is no harm, they would have conned you out of money, therefore there is harm.
If you develop foot pain would a reflexologist massage your wrists to alleviate the foot pain?
this is really useful … thanks guys. I could use Workrave at home because that’s where I usually work without breaks.
When the last Elder Scrolls game was released I would play for hours at a time with my hand firmly clamped around my non-ergonomic mouse. I’d sit in the same position, moving only my shoulders and my fingers. Suffice to say, after a couple of weeks the wrist of my mouse hand started to feel like it was on fire after an hour or so of playing.
I managed to solve the problem by using an ergonomic mouse mat with a gel wrist rest. I can’t explain the medical or physical reasoning behind it, but the problem completely disappeared.
Just bite the bullet and buy a 3D Ergonomic Dvorak keyboard from Maltron and an Intuos from WACOM (use only the pen as your pointing device). Costs lots, but problem solved and no fear of a sudden RSI attack in later life.
I have RSI is writing with a pen is a sure fire way to kick it of.
When I first got it I had about 10 sessions with an osteopath who did numerous deep muscle massages and stretches. He also taught me a number of stretches that I do myself every morning (when I remember).
I combined this with gel wrist supports, regular breaks and a trackball when using my laptop. The RSI hasn’t gone but it is under controll
When I started to feel my RSI problems I got a Kinesis Contoured (Dvorak), Wacom pen, a chair, new desk, new monitor, threw away my laptops. All accessories I could find and it worked. For a while. I think it can work but it can also just move the pain to other areas.
For me good hardware has been a help but it hasn’t solved the problems.
Well, this is the first time I have come to comment and it seems others have the same feelings as me.
I was quite surprised and shocked to hear Jono seemingly praise and advocate Reflexology. Not that he is selling it or anything, but I am just surprised that such a seemingly intelligent person would speak in such a way of such pseudoscientific nonsense.
Great, I am glad it fixed his problem, I am just disappointed he didn’t recognise that it was probably just as a result of the massage (see also Chiropractic) and dismiss it.
I am surprised that he actually went to see the reflexologist. I am also very disappointed, although not surprised, that a ‘professional’ health carer recommended he go see a reflexologist.
On topic, I have suffered mildly from RSI I think, but nothing too bad that I couldn’t work, but I did wear a wrist support once whilst it was particularly bad, but I am no programmer so don’t sit for hours on end non-stop typing, although I am a CAD user, so do use a mouse all day sometimes.
In an earlier life I was a cipher operator, which required me to learn to touch-type. I feel that this has helped me to keep RSI at bay, because I am not continually using the same finger to impact the keyboard. Whilst this may be just good fortune on my part, a non-scientific survey of colleagues, some of whom touch-type and some don’t, seems to bear this out.
I’d be interested in other people’s experience on this point.
I get it a lot from playing guitar (you can get it when palm muting too much and from moving your fingers to the strings) but heat really helps I think. So I wear wrist bands and gloves (sometimes). For typing and stuff I dont get it a lot. I think a lot of it is people not typing properly. My Da cant type properly and id say if he typed a lot he would get RSI.
So my recommendation is some heat.
Oh by the way I have a bit of a click in my wrist but I dont know if thats entirely related.
I don’t know anything about Reflexology specifically, but I do know that several times in my life I’ve had various acute pains in joints and even numbness in my little finger once which I was able to “cure” by finding knots or other points of stress at surprisingly far points on my body, including my feet. Whether someone would call it reflexology or simply a “massage” would probably depend on one’s definition of those two terms.
One of the biggest factors in shoulder, wrist, and back stresses I’ve found at work is my chair. I don’t have an expensive ergonomic chair, but it is fully adjustable (back up/down, forward/reverse tilt, and seat height and tilt). If the chair isn’t positioned well, the meaning of which I’ve had to discover through experimentation, my back, shoulders, and wrists will start to feel various pains, both sharp and dull aches. Sitting in the same chair adjusted differently, those problems disappear.
Jono, Stu, anyone else who eats lunch sitting at their console–really really consider switching up to a standing workspace. Once you’re standing, you’re more likely to wander away from your desk to eat, or just pace the office. My back isn’t sore and my legs don’t start to fall asleep after long coding sessions since going standing.
You stand up all day? Honestly? Doesn’t it kill your legs?
The amount of time I spend sitting down is mostly during meals and when I read to the kids. Some days I’m more tired than others, so I’ll flip a chair around and lean against the top of the backrest as if it was a stool.
My legs–specifically, my arches and ankles, do not get sore. I remember when I was a teenager, and weighed a lot more than I do now, my feet would always be sore if I were on them all day. My current experience is that my legs and my back might feel a bit tired, but don’t bother me at all. They feel better when I stand on a towel in my socks or barefoot than in shoes or sandals. Our feet are basically made for standing, so we really only need a little bit of padding. Shoes might make your ankles or arches feel worse because they’re putting your feet in subtly worse positions.
There’s some OSHA(et al) standars for standing workspaces (sorry, no link) and summarizing: stand on a rubber pad, have a foot-bar to rest one of your feet on, have a stool, and match the height of your work surface to nature (and weight) of your task.
Going “cold turkey” and standing all day long might be a rough way to go about it. No harm in using a stool or taking brakes. Maybe consider having two workspaces if you have both a PC and a lappie: stand at the PC, sit with the lappie. Changing workspaces is another method for controlling your distractions and your posture (which is helpful for preventing RSI).
I switched to a standing workspace last night: http://twitpic.com/1oyr9d. I can’t switch to a standing desk in the office yet, but I often work from home, so we’ll see how it goes. My legs ached a lot last night from just a couple of hours of standing, but I’m hoping they’ll get used to it.
Tom,
Thank you for posting a picture! (I should post my home one). Please consider that the top of your monitors should be level or slightly above the level of your eyes (just like when sitting), this encourages easier neck posture. If you can find a little smaller table to place before your monitor table, see if you can get your keyboard down to elbow level, that’s important for your wrists (keep those from resting on the edge of the table) and shoulders. Also a wee table in front, or egg crate, will keep about 26 or more inches between your head and monitors–an arm span is appropriate distance for your eyes to focus.
Good luck!
Here’s a pic of my standing workspace: http://blog.bitratchet.com/?attachment_id=749
I use a “powerball” regularly, it’s a gyroscope that is spun and operated by wrist-action. This helps strengthen the wrists and is also used by musicians and sportsmen (eg. archers) for the same purpose. I have the one here on front page http://www.powerballs.com/ with the digital readout. It’s not only rather soothing once at speed but you can make it into a fun contest by trying to beat previous high-scores in rotation speed!
Other good advice in our desk-based profession is to take breaks, 10 minutes every hour is a good rule of thumb. Make sure your desk and chair are the correct height. Keep you back straight and maintain your lordosis. Take a break for lunch – if 1 hour, take 30 mins for food and chatting with colleagues and 30 mins for a circular walk outside whatever the weather. You will come back refreshed. One advantage of being a sysadmin is that there is a “physical” side which requires one to be in the server room and away from the desk – so thats becomes ones natural “break” in a way.
Good read. It doen’t matter what sector you work in, good ergonomics ought to be a right set down in the contract of every single employee. Anyone who’s had to suffer with RSI would agree with me, Employers really should incorporate workplace ergonomics within their over-all HR strategy.